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26

Sunday, December 18th 2011, 8:08pm

Anyway,that's just my opinion and I'm not all that good a player (ladder 27,000 shocking actually),but I do understand the mechanics behind the scenes.

Anywho,sorry if I was out of place posting opinion here,as I'm new and not top ladder.but I feel opnions should be aired from a wide range of skill levels.
There´s no reason to apologize Temper, you´re free to post your opinion :D

AMP

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27

Monday, December 19th 2011, 12:44am

Another thing is the +2 morale factor from a leader general, affecting the Loan swords. I believe that makes a big difference in their combat ability, making them stay longer than intended thus giving us an illusion that loan swords are cost effective. If a warrior or bow general were to field Loans I would come to the conclusion that we wouldn't label loan swords as cost effective as we would for a leader general.
Putting it like that the same can be said for all units with low morale. So in the end it makes sense if you wanna use peasants in your army and have them stay and fight awhile that it's best to use a leadership general for the +2 morale, increased aura radius, and increased fatigue recover rate. If you want to use a combat general and use units with weak morale that you need to use things to boost their morale unless you are mostly just using them as cannon fodder. And there is no "illusion that loan swords are cost effective" because people are playing with leadership generals and that's what loan swords are benefiting from in the game and are capable of doing in a match and even more so when backed up by hold firm. If you have a combat general and still want to field lower morale units why should they be as cost effective as they are when using a leadership general? That wouldn't make much sense to me. Combat generals need to invest more in keeping lower morale units up to make use out of their cost effectiveness because after all they are combat generals.

Edit: The more I think about ,the more I believe loanswords are less attractive only because you can only have four and retainers won't benefit your whole army because now to get a boat load of decent swords you got to actually spend some cash on higher tier units that aren't ashigaru....I could be wrong
They are just less attractive because of their morale where most people rather play it safe with higher morale units over loan swords that have weaker morale and more susceptible to morale shocks and chain routs.
Asking for tips and suggestions will only get you so far, you still need to practice putting the time and effort into getting better.

28

Monday, December 19th 2011, 7:15am

Quote form AMP "They are just less attractive because of their morale where most people rather play it safe with higher morale units over loan swords that have weaker morale and more susceptible to morale shocks and chain routs."

True true.

Like I said,as a melee general,ashigaru are pretty much off the table for me because my general prowls the field looking for openings and is rarely in one spot for long,meaning what little moral comforts he can give the army are pretty much null and void.

So what you wrote does ring true.

I don't use ashigaru and havn't for a long but I do play against them a hell of a lot hehe,so I'll have to defer to your guys judgement on mechanics/balance of them.

About the retainer thing I wrote- I worded it badly,and should not have said it was the *ONLY* reason,as it's not.

But it is also something to factor into the equation,as the more retainers you have that effect all/most of your army the more effective/effecient the retainers/armies are.

If not we wouldn't stack as many of the same units as possible (short of a spam) to get the benefits.

Monks also suffer from this *retainer overload*,but their price in Koku dampens the effect somewhat.

Anyway if upgrades were taken off Ashigaru then they would be a non issue.Melee/bow generals still wouldn't use them (much) and leader generals would still have a reliable force with his army buffs.Loanswords prices could drop with little ill effect and the cap could be axed.

Back in the loansword days,it wasn't the loansword spams I feared,but the *balanced* Ashi cores.Yari + loans = superior cavalry and bow/matchlock.Spear that did it's job well with spearwall,no upgrades needed (half price of Yari sam),and sword that rivaled higher tier units at a fraction of cost.(which is what allowed for the elite cav and bow/match)

No matter how kick-ass a melee/bow general thought his army was (usually max 1500 men),it ain't gonna chew thru 2000-2500 well commanded troops with better cav and bow/matchlock than himself.

Thanks Prodigy,I just didn't want to rock the boat and come off a san ass.

I know a lot names from way back to shogun1 and I get a feeling of knowing so many of you just from reading your posts,but I wasn't much of a social butterfly back then and until now never posted or made myself known,it's a shame it's taken me so long.

Oh crap lol,what a long reply........and I ranted.......be glad we aren't on SKYPE ! =)


Take care all !


Temper

29

Monday, December 19th 2011, 7:34am

Hi all !

Sorry for double post.

Just as an aside,regardless of what we all think of the current state of the game,It's the first time (since I've been playing anyway) that we've seen so many different/varied army builds being used so freely,instead of army builds being built to counter other army builds or a standard build that everyone uses religously.

And that says quite a bit to me......if it ain't broke.........maybe

Temper

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30

Monday, December 19th 2011, 9:44am

Oh temper I wish I got games with you in Mtw2 my favorite of TW games, could of been great times.

but hec here we are now what is your steam address so we can game with you man! :)sorry if I missed if you posted your steam profile. :)
I Obey the Rose.

"History is the best medicine for a sick mind; for in history you have a record of the infinite variety of human experiences plainly set out for all to see;... and in all you find yourself an example and warning..." -Livy

AMP

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31

Monday, December 19th 2011, 9:57am

Yeah I'm not quite sure what you mean with the retainers because when someone uses 4 loan swords that are capped they can also pick other sword units that benefit from the sword retainers. That I was just pointing out the main reason they aren't being used is because of their morale, that using units with 10+ morale is easier to manage being harder to rout. And that if you can keep their morale up through hold firm or stacked morale bonuses they can be quite cost effective for their price, so I find them quite perfect right now.

Monks benefit from less retainers now because of the patch... no more yari master and no point in using woii, but they are still good to deploy with their high morale, bonus vs cav, decent combat stats, and warcry.

Anyway I find the balance good, but far from perfect, but I can live with that where it won't stop me playing it just yet. Not many options out there with games like this... more like 0 options. :/
Asking for tips and suggestions will only get you so far, you still need to practice putting the time and effort into getting better.

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32

Monday, December 19th 2011, 12:20pm

it might be a closed topic now in ur minds after all these super long posts. BUT i think the answer to making loanswords useful again to a more average player than AMP; would be to fix woii retainer. woii and rennyos masked the crap morale of Loanswords, i think they got it right by lowering the defense of both woii and rennyos. but c'mon +10% cost for woii?? it takes it from overplayed to totally useless and might as well not be available.

instead of -50 cost on loans i say make way of ikko retainer give +1 morale and +1 or 2 def with NO cost penalty. with loans costing more now having to use a retainer to boost morale evens it out, and gives u an option of a new unit to use besides just katana sams and dachis. as it is now only a super pro would say loanswords are usable at all, because to him all units are usable. [no offense AMP we all know ur the man]

-BCKnight

33

Monday, December 19th 2011, 12:58pm

Hi all !

@AMP: I'm basically agreeing with you in my own wierd way. =P

@Reborn-Augustus: I skipped playing MTW2,I purchased it,but sadly just never found it appealing enough to install it.Don't really know why. =(
http://steamcommunity.com/id/Darkelf_Temper

Logged into steam most of the time I'm awake,just not playing much Shogun 2 .I'm fulltime carer to our three year old (see Avatar),and that is pretty much how I'm playing matches.

We were against player named *December* the other night who I sure I've seen on official forums and by the look of his army he meant buisness,when about 20 seconds into the match my boy said he felt sick and proceeded to puke on my lap and keyboard.Needless to say the boy and I didn't fare to well in that game. We win some and we lose some,either way it's fun lol.


Temper

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "(Darkelf) Temper" (Dec 19th 2011, 2:32pm)


34

Wednesday, December 21st 2011, 3:41pm

So you just posted and now say you dont want to continue as you notice people disagree with you? So in summary, you were just trolling here, started a discussion and leave when the people disagree with you. Good style.


pls dont be stupid boy... simple as i said, msot people do share my opinion(well after reading post here is 50-50) about the LS 50 goku reduction... i simply lack the patiente and time for continuing arguing about somethign that already msot people agree with me... i havet even played shogun sicne i got APB so i am definetly not gona waste my time arguing about soemthign that dosent bothers me anymore....

so dont be stupid and silly.. next time show some more respect so taht people will give it back to u.....
"Let them hate us so long as they fear us"

Chris lol

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35

Wednesday, December 21st 2011, 6:36pm

So you just posted and now say you dont want to continue as you notice people disagree with you? So in summary, you were just trolling here, started a discussion and leave when the people disagree with you. Good style.


pls dont be stupid boy... simple as i said, msot people do share my opinion(well after reading post here is 50-50) about the LS 50 goku reduction... i simply lack the patiente and time for continuing arguing about somethign that already msot people agree with me... i havet even played shogun sicne i got APB so i am definetly not gona waste my time arguing about soemthign that dosent bothers me anymore....

so dont be stupid and silly.. next time show some more respect so taht people will give it back to u.....


Funny how you call people "silly", "stupid"and "boy" and then proceed to ask them to respect you (because you are being so respectfull yourself)

Also as far as i can see not everyone agrees with you. Not even the majority. But even if you were to be right, the majority of people agreeing with you is a bad arguement as countless occasions can be named where the "majority" of the people has been wrong.

36

Wednesday, December 21st 2011, 7:24pm

you guys can discuss without need for personal attacks right? good :)

AMP

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37

Wednesday, December 21st 2011, 10:29pm

Hey now I respect people when they call me "silly", "stupid" and "boy" and I'm sure Abu loves it as well!! 8o 8o 8o
Asking for tips and suggestions will only get you so far, you still need to practice putting the time and effort into getting better.

Chris lol

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38

Wednesday, December 21st 2011, 11:26pm

Hey now I respect people when they call me "silly", "stupid" and "boy" and I'm sure Abu loves it as well!! 8o 8o 8o


Ok you stupid, silly silly boy.

(that sounded strangely kinky, but maybe thats just me :D )

Edit: to say something that is actually relevant to the topic haha. While i do not use LS myself currently i do think they still are quite good. If they were to be changed i would rather see a slight increase in morale or melee attack rather than a cost decrease. But even then i do not care too much. They are fine as is but some small tweaks would not make me cry myself to sleep at night.

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39

Wednesday, December 21st 2011, 11:27pm

Keep in mind that he's posted this in multiple places and even plugs this thread in his other posts.
Guessing it's something close to his heart so we should cut him a break. :)

40

Thursday, December 22nd 2011, 12:44pm

i clearly said show more respect. so taht people can show it back... he was quite sarcastic and silly on his post.. i asnwer with the same hostility... if any of u gets mad.. ur problem bros.... go complain somwere ^^) BTW get apb u will all stop likign shogun after taht,,,, well taht if u dotn suck at it ofcourse :P
"Let them hate us so long as they fear us"

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "yellow" (Dec 22nd 2011, 10:28pm)


41

Friday, December 23rd 2011, 8:30pm

I agree with Chris here. I think a small morale and maybe melee attack increase would be better than lowering the cost, since that would prevent them from taking over the Katana sams current place as the most common core (with some occational No-Dachis ofc). I would dread the moment when peasants once again would be better to bring than real SAMURAI! (which almost is the case with the really strong yari ashi builds).

An interesting idea i snapped up from somewhere was that you shouldnt be able to upgrade ashigaru troops at all. If you cant make them to veterans, CA can increase their stats a bit, even lower their cost, and they will be a good addition to any army but they wouldnt be overpowered or be a threat to the games balance in any other way that I can see.

42

Saturday, December 24th 2011, 2:29pm

I dont think anything should change - u get a price reduction with orator and ahigaru units are a support or holding unit nothing more - u will need much better units also to win a battle against a compitent opponent. Yari walls are good with hold firm they stay a long time but keep the pressure up they break really quick - especially when flanked. Loans swords can be beaten by the cheapest units sword attendant to pin light cav to rear charge there done so tbh everything is about right where it is - i would be more worried about the hordes of sword attendants they can have really good stats and have a specific retainer for em :)

43

Saturday, December 24th 2011, 4:02pm

I can say after seeing this topic a few days ago i finally decided to bring 4 lone swords into battle with my own army combo to see how it would do i think the battles where 3v3 or 4v4 and i did 2 battles i think i had same army combo both times. And i found out something the lone swords are not all that bad yes they will loose to katana samurai and other units but mine would cost only around 600 funds compared to my 900/1050 funds katana samurai. (my vets with reduce cost retainers) I won both of the fights and the lone swords did have a part in the battle but i won the fights to other resons like since i spent some of the extra money on 3 200 range bows i could win the bow fight plus i had a heavy gunner to really do some pain before melee starts. I can say after I used lone swords again after so long they are not as good as before for sure but they are still a cheaper option. As long as you keep there moral up they do pretty good plus you can spend the extra money from using lone swords on whatever you want. yes since it was 3v3/4v4 my partners could help me and i could help them so it will not be a perfect example but for the most part we got in melee and fighting it out i still think that lone swords can do decent after what i saw. If they do anything to fix lone swords a little i think taking the cap on lone swords off would be good it would give more army combos and since lone swords are not to powerful now you would not need to worry about lone sword spams being op

AMP

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44

Sunday, December 25th 2011, 1:25am

If people want to buff my loan swords go ahead I won't mind. I already posted the vids on what damage they can do and they seemed about right, but if you need them buffed inorder to be tempted to bring some to battle go and make the case to CA about it by all means.
Asking for tips and suggestions will only get you so far, you still need to practice putting the time and effort into getting better.

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